How to Remember Captain Cook

March 2021

Dr Sam Willis explores the fascinating problems posed by Britain’s complex imperial history by thinking in particular about Captain James Cook, the eighteenth-century British explorer and navigator famous for his three voyages to Australia and the Pacific (1768-1779). Sam talks with with Kevin Sumption – the Director and CEO of the Australian National Maritime Museum. They range widely over issues raised when planning for the 250th anniversary in April 2020 of Cook’s arrival in Australia. Why are multiple perspectives important in a narrative like Cook’s? And how did they go about including First People’s narratives of Cook’s arrival? Sam and Kevin also explore two intriguing items in the museum’s collection: A bronze bust of Captain Cook with his head covered by a black balaklava made by the Australian artist Jason Wing, which challenges the colonial history of Australia from an Aboriginal perspective, and an eighteenth-century japanned tea tray by the artist Edward Bird depicting the death of Captain Cook in Hawaii in 1779.

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    Sam Willis

    From the Society for Nautical Research, in partnership with Lloyd’s Register Foundation, I’m Sam Willis, and this is the Mariner’s Mirror Podcast, the world’s number one podcast dedicated to all of maritime history.

    Let us begin with the sailors on the whale ships Swan trapped in the ice on the west coast of Greenland in the New Year of 1837. It’s now nearly five months since they became trapped, and time is running out. The environment is terrifying, and scurvy is starting to get a grip from which few could escape. The readings are taken from the logbook of the Swan held in the archives of the Caird Library at the National Maritime Museum in London. A transcription has been made especially for this podcast. You are the first people ever to hear this story readout.

    Whaler Swan

    Monday 28th of March. Forepart of this day commences with fine clear weather and little wind. The ship having drifted nothing north during the last breezes. At 8 am strong gales the ship driving fast in a north-westerly direction. At 4 pm passed by a burgh aground against which the ice was tearing up with such force that it resembled a sea breaking over a cliff. The day ends with heavy gales and thick snowy weather. The thermometer reading 25 degrees above zero. Friday 24th of March. Light winds with fine clear weather. The ship being quite stationary. During the last southerly gales, the ship has drifted 45 miles to the northwards, and we are once more among an immense number of icebergs in which there is no chance of being liberated until the most northerly gale. The North End of Heare Island bears about south southeast distant 25 miles. A 250-gallon cask, number 17, cut up for fuel this day. Latitude by observation 70 degrees by 34 north. Thermometer 5 degrees. Monday 27th. Fine clear weather with light northerly winds. Heare Island bearing south by east distant 15 miles. There is very little hope now of our being enabled to stop on board until the ice breaks up, our bread being nearly expended and several of them down in the scurvy. Although the land is no great distance from us, still the chance of getting the ship out is very small, being frozen up in the very centre of a large flow. Should an opportunity offer or a good lead present itself it would be impossible to attempt to saw through the ice, the health of our men being so much injured by exposure to cold and the want of a sufficient quantity of nourishment. Two shakes cut up this day for fuel.

    Sam Willis

    Do remember when listening to this, that the reason we are including this log – it’s not just for entertainment – it’s because those sailors were stuck in the ice. And in that area of Greenland where they became stuck the ice now arrived later, and it leaves much earlier. Because of global warming, the experience that you listened to at the start of each of our episodes will quite simply never be repeated.

    Today we are heading all the way to Sydney to speak with Kevin Sumption, the Director and CEO of the Australian National Maritime Museum. And he came there after a stint in London at the National Maritime Museum there and the Royal Observatory in Greenwich where he was director of exhibitions and programs. He’s an expert on too many things to mention, but they include digital media in cultural institutions, digital curatorship, interactive media, basically anything and everything to do with museum management, exhibition curation, program development, maritime heritage, and digital cultural content. As part of this podcast, I’ve wanted to find out about how certain maritime myths are understood and experienced around the world. And one of those myths, one that encapsulates themes of discovery and Empire, is Captain Cook. And there is no one better place than Kevin at the Australian National Maritime Museum to discuss the unique challenges of how to remember Cook. I loved speaking to him, I found it inspirational and refreshing, and I hope you enjoy listening. You’ll never think about Cook the same way ever again. That’s for certain.

    Hi, Kevin. Thanks for speaking to us today.

    Kevin Sumption

    Pleasure, Sam.

    Sam Willis

    So, Australia, it’s such a vast country, you’ve got this very distinctive mixture of urban and rural, of maritime and not maritime. Tell me how you actually cope with that challenge as a museum.

    Kevin Sumption

    Well, it’s an interesting mix, as you say, but one of the things that we do have in Australia is an enormous coastline, about 26,000 kilometres of coastline and over 80% of the population lives within about 20Ks of that coastline. So, whether you like it or not, your kind of connected to the ocean, the vast majority of the population is any way. And most people engage in some form of leisure, or sport associated with our oceans or our inland rivers. So, it kind of is in the blood, it’s very close, literally, to where people are living. So, we find it quite easy to connect with people. So long as you are also willing to take a contemporary view of the oceans and ocean sciences, as well as the historical. So, one of the things that I think sets us apart as a maritime museum, is that we are as much focused on today and the future, as we are on historical aspects of Australia’s maritime history.

    Sam Willis

    It’s such a great way to do it; I’m a firm believer in that. I think it helps you tell the story much more easily if you can use the contemporary, use the modern-day, as a starting place. And what about the breadth of your collections? How does that help you tell this story of rivers and the sea and the Australians connection with the maritime world,

    Kevin Sumption

    So, we’re a relatively new national collecting institution; so, our collecting started in the mid-1980s. And it’s fair to say that most of the major museums are state museums in Australia, and they started 100 years ahead of us collecting, and mainly in the natural histories area, some in the design area. So, we came late to the collecting, but in this period between the mid-80s through to 2020, we’ve amassed a collection, just over 144,000 objects. Arguably the most significant parts of that collection, though, are our floating fleets. So, we have a fleet of 11 vessels, that

    Sam Willis

    Eleven! I didn’t know it was that many that. That’s astonishing

    Kevin Sumption

    Yes, yes. And about to add another significant replica, the Duyfken, which is a replica of the first European vessel to have a documented encounter with the continent and with Indigenous Australians off Cape York in 1606. That’s about to come into our collection as well. And we’ll operate that on Sydney Harbour.

    Sam Willis

    Well, just to say, that’s 164 years before Cook arrived. I think we’ll come back to that fairly significant point; I think. Just briefly, tell us about these other historic vessels. I know about the Endeavour, which is a replica of Cook’s ship built in 88, in the mid-80s, and then it’s become famous around the world; it’s circumnavigated Australia, three times; it’s been to Europe; it’s been to the States; it’s been all over the place. We’ll talk about that briefly, but what about these other historic vessels you have.

    Kevin Sumption

    So, most of our other operating vessels are relatively small vessels. S,o we have what we call a Kudu boat. And a Kudu boat is a shark fishing boat that was built in the 1870s in Victoria, as a means of using relatively straightforward technology to catch fish out of Melbourne. Then we have a gift from the New Zealand government for the bicentenary of Australia, which is the Akarana, which is a very prominent racing vessel, won many races on Sydney Harbour, again in the 19th century. We also have another bicentennial gift from the Norwegian government, which is the Kathleen Gillette, which is a beautiful boat originally built for the use of one of Australia’s most prominent maritime artists, Jack Earl, and that was restored and gifted to the nation. Then we have a range of workboats. One of my favourites is the John Louis, the John Louis is a pearling lugger, built in the 1950s, the last pearling lugger actually, built in Broome on our west coast – with a fantastic history of Broome and particularly Japanese, Indonesian, Malaysian divers and crew – a whole range of stories can be told through Australia’s pearling industry. And then a range of other small workboats that we take out from time to time on to the harbour. And then included on top of all of that are the two largest objects in the national collections in Australia, which is an Oberon class submarine called Onslow and a destroyer, HMAS Vampire. Both of those aren’t operational anymore, you’ll be happy to hear. But they’re two of the collection, which is all situated in beautiful Sydney Harbour, which is, we’re told by our visitors, is really what drives them to come and see us; they’ve got so many opportunities to go on board, and kind of live the experience of being a sailor or someone operating on these vessels. It’s what we call a living history approach. And that’s something the museum prides itself on.

    Sam Willis

    It’s so fantastic, that breadth of collection; I’ve never heard anything like it. We’re actually going to be doing a strand on the podcast on historic vessels. And we’ve also got some funding from Lloyd’s Register Foundation to travel. So, I’m going to make sure I come to Sydney and look at your beautiful ships – that’s the plan. It must be a wonderful experience being able to go on to Cook’s Endeavour or then go on to a submarine – quite bewildering for visitors as well. I think there’s a real sense that, you know, the maritime world, the world of the sailor is just one interpretation, one understanding of it, and all you’ve got to do is go on to a submarine and then go on to Cook’s Endeavour, and you’ll realize how wildly different it all is.

    Kevin Sumption

    Undoubtedly Sam, one of the challenges we have is trying to give people a sense of the diversity of the sailing experience that be you an officer or a sailor on a Royal Australian Navy vessel, or a fisherman in the middle of the turbulent seas of Melbourne in the mid-19th century, or out in Sydney Harbour on a flying 18 trying to win a trophy, all very different experiences. But you know, fascinating and exciting. And our job really is to bring those objects to life. And so, sailing them or, our other prize vessel I didn’t mention which I should do, is steam yacht Ena, which is an Edwardian launch that we’ve spent three years working on restoring, that now goes out and about the harbour and is again another way to experience the high life, so to speak, of the Edwardian era on a beautiful steam launch.

    Sam Willis

    It’s interesting you say that because I love the democratic, I suppose nature of these vessels. So, if you go onboard, and you say, Well, I can imagine myself as a crew, but there’s a chance that I could become a captain. Or if you go on as a visitor, or I’d like to be able to be wealthy enough to enjoy this Edwardian steam launch. But I think there’s going on a boat, it really puts life into a kind of bubble and makes you realize the opportunities ahead of you. It’s such a powerful teaching tool.

    Kevin Sumption

    And what I’m always struck by is that opportunity is not as common as we’d like to think. Not everybody gets a chance to go out on the water, go sailing or experience being on a steam yacht. So, it’s a really special experience. And I had a good friend of mine who I’ve lived next door to for about 10 years, and we took him out on steam yacht Ena last weekend, and he came up to me and said “That was one of the great experiences of my life. I got to see this steam yacht; I could smell this thing working; I could feel it moving beneath me.” This was one of the great kind of experiences he’d ever had. And this was somebody who had done quite a bit of sailing and been on a lot of vessels around the world, but being on a steamboat, and going back somewhat in time to experience what that was like, was incredibly special.

    Sam Willis

    A very profound experience, it’s very visceral, the smell particularly. I’ve had a lucky chance to be on a couple of historic vessels like that, and I completely agree with him. It’s something that if you haven’t experienced you really have to it – it’s quite moving, isn’t it?

    Kevin Sumption

    I think it is. We live in a world where so much of the function of the machines we surround ourselves with is hidden. It’s either in a microchip, or it’s electronic, or it’s digital, or the function of the machine is not particularly evident. It’s certainly not touchable and it very rarely has a smell or a texture. And this is the beauty of sailing or steaming is if you’re looking at a turbine prop or if you’re looking at a steam engine, the function of what it’s delivering, the propulsion, is pretty evident from the mechanics in front of you: the steam, the smell, the temperature, all of these things really excite the senses in a way that a lot of contemporary technology quite deliberately hides behind. So, a completely different kind of visceral experience, as you say.

    Sam Willis

    It helps you understand the word inventor as well, because you’re standing there, and there’s some water, which is being heated, it’s really quite simple technology, but that is making this machine come alive in front of your eyes. That’s what I love about it. Again, the sense that these wonderful inventions of the 19th century, were almost there for anyone to just sort of pick up if they had the genius to make it happen. It makes that whole process very human, I think

    Kevin Sumption

    It does. And again, with having, moving back through time, and having also sailing vessels, I think our ability to look at two to three hundred years of technological change in sailing through our fleet now, is also quite surprising to people; they tend to think, Oh, you know, I’ve seen a modern yacht that sails in a certain way, it’s rigged in a certain way, that’s all straightforward. They don’t realize that the technology that’s involved in simply sailing is hundreds, if not thousands of years in evolution. And there are distinct styles and approaches including Cook’s own Endeavor, which is incredibly different from that, say, a Dutch East Indies yacht, like Duyfken, very different set up very different approach to sailing. And that, again, is the beauty of having a collection like ours, that can literally take you through different technological approaches to either steaming or sailing.

    Sam Willis

    It’s great you’ve come back to Duyfken, this Dutch yacht – first documented discovery of Australia, well contact with Europeans and Australia in 1606, and Captain Cook, because that’s primarily what I wanted to talk to you about today, the arrival of Cook in 1770. And just by mentioning the Duyfken there, you can see there’s a pretty complex layered history there. What are the challenges of remembering Captain Cook’s arrival in 1770?

    Kevin Sumption

    I think that the challenges of remembering Cook’s arrival off the east coast of Australia are many and varied. I think fundamentally, we have approached this important anniversary, first of all, reminding people that Cook was engaged in a scientific endeavour. He was part of a scientific endeavour into the Pacific primarily around observing the transit of Venus. And through that reminding people that science was fundamental to a lot of the Pacific exploration. In Australia, there’s also a very important role that we recognise when we did our research about five years ago and asked Australians about the coming anniversary, almost universally, there was a, yes, we must commemorate it. And then we dug a little bit deeper and said “What do you actually know about Cook? Tell us more”, and what was surprising was, people felt they knew the story very well, but when we asked them questions, it was very clear, there’s a lot of confusion about who Cook was when he arrived, what he did do and what he didn’t do, and particularly a confusion with the First Fleet in 1788, and various characters being interwoven. And so, what we recognise is there was a pretty big job for us to de-mythologise, as well as explain some of the important achievements. But most critically, we look back to 1970, the 200th anniversary, and we recognise modern Australia had come a long, long way in those 50 years. And the real missing part of the story was a voice from the shore. Traditionally, this is a story told from the ship. And in modern Australia, it’s ever so important now, that we go and find the stories from First Nation peoples who have a story to tell about seeing and interacting with Cook because their stories and their voices have traditionally not been heard when this master narrative has been told.

    Sam Willis

    How did you then include First Peoples narratives into the planning for marking Cook’s 250th?

    Kevin Sumption

    So, we started very early on in a very detailed process of consultation and discussion. There are many, many First Nation communities up Australia’s east coast. If you look at Cook’s voyage up the east coast of Australia, it’s some 2500, 3000 kilometres, it would go through at least 40 to 50 traditional waters, of different communities. And so, our process was started talking to, particularly first of all the communities that we know that there was engagement with Cook, Banks and the crew and that fundamentally started at Port Hicks, where Cook makes the first observations of the fact that that’s the east coast of Australia, the Great Southern land. And we were surprised straight away by the fact that there’s a very detailed account in both Banks’ and Cook’s journals of seeing waterspouts, as they see, for the first time, the shore of Australia. And if you go and speak to the local community around Port Hicks, the waterspout is a very important symbolic pretence of what might be coming – a foreseer of possible conflict. And that is part and parcel of their storytelling is they do recall the same waterspouts. And they saw, even though there was no direct contact with the community, that there’s a shared story backed up by Banks and Cook that in the oral histories of the communities around Port Hicks, is also very, very prominent. And that’s what we started to do, we started to go back and forth with communities. And were always surprised to find out how these communities had handed down their stories, their accounts, and some of them quite contentious. If you go and speak to the communities up around Possession Island, the far north parts of Australia, where Cook laid claim to the east coast of Australia, the communities there will tell you he never came ashore. They know the tides; they know the rock formations. There may have been a claim made, but there’s no way it could have been done at this time of the year on this particular outcrop of the island. So, there’s fantastic kind of narrative there that we’re now trying to encourage some science around the tides and other things, that is also a contentious narrative, where it might say that something possibly different happened. And so, it’s opening up a dialogue; it’s respecting that there are different stories that are emerging from these communities, but fundamentally, for the first time, asking the question, engaging with that community, and seeking their stories and their views, which simply hadn’t happened before this anniversary.

    Sam Willis

    It’s such an amazing difference from what’s happened in the past. Do you have detailed notes on how previous anniversaries interpreted the Cook landing?

    Kevin Sumption

    Most of the accounts are our newspaper accounts. So, the 1970s is mainly covered. through detailed newspaper accounts. There’s the traditional kind of coin that you’ve got sent if you’re at school. We have – I found through a friend a fantastic Cook discovery game that was produced in 1970. And in the way that game was put together and the language used, it was very much this colonial story, discovering Australia. And of course, Cook didn’t discover Australia, Australia was an occupied continent, possibly 80,000 years before Cook arrived, we had first nation peoples in Australia. So, it was interesting going back through the newspaper archives, and going back, particularly through popular culture and having a look at some of the games, to see what the currency and the language of the day was. And quite deliberately, we said, No, no, we’re not going to be repeating that, indeed we’ll be looking to de-mythologize a lot of that

    Sam Willis

    Does Cook, I mean, this is obviously ongoing work, but do you think he (Cook) still dominates this historical narrative of other people’s arriving in Australia? Does he make it more difficult for you to actually tell the story of what happened?

    Kevin Sumption

    I think a couple of ways of looking at that. I think Cook is such a powerful figure on the east coast of Australia – and I have to be really careful here, Sydney and Cook is very much an East Coast story, and if you go to the west of Australia, they will talk about the Dutch, much, much more significantly, to their part of the world than Cook is to the east coast of Australia. But nonetheless, if you look at school accounts, across all curriculums in Australia, Cook is there as a major figure. I think because he’s such a significant figure it was a wonderful opportunity for us to pick him up, to talk more about him, and to most importantly, attempt to humanise him. I mean, he’s an incredibly difficult character to humanise because he didn’t write a lot. There’s a lot of other people’s writings about Cook, but he wasn’t the most articulate writer about himself, other than, you know, the journals. So that was fantastic. And because he’s such a common currency and discussion here, it was a great opportunity to begin to take that story and expand it and explore new avenues. And we can say that we’ve been quite successful this year, we did some analysis of the media that has been out in Australia since what we call the ‘Anniversary Encounters 2020’ (that anniversary, obviously coming to a close now), and more than 80% of the reporting of any Cook story in Australia, you could find within that a voice not only from the ship but a voice from the shore. So five years’ worth of work (and this is not just ourselves, this is the National Library, and the National Museum of Australia), I think we can say we’ve done a reasonable job in expanding the narrative, and allowing First Nation voice to also speak in the story of Cook – if you simply look at mainstream media, where traditionally mainstream media would have simply been the story from the ship, and that’s simply not the case in modern Australia now.

    Sam Willis

    And it’s an idea – it’s a theme, which I suppose you can apply to all sorts of things. It’s not just Cook’s story which this works for, is it?

    Kevin Sumption

    No. And indeed, this was part of our motivation in wanting to take on board the Dutch East Indies company vessel Duyfken, because Duyfken is currently the first vessel that we know all of that charts and documents a part of Australia in 1606. But in doing so, they come ashore, and they spend considerable time with communities around the centre of Weipa in Cape York. So again, for us, we’re as interested in the stories of those communities, as we are the archives and voices of Dutch merchants in the 17th century.

    Sam Willis

    It’s a kind of a profound warning to historians of all stripes, isn’t it – ‘Don’t be obsessed with what’s written down on those pieces of paper’. I mean, having said that, actually, what you were saying about Cook’s personality is really interesting, because the one thing we can get a sense of off Cook is his – he was a scientist and a navigator through and through, he lived and breathed his job, that was his whole purpose. And yes, it’s very difficult to get a sense of his personality, but you know, you can definitely identify him as one of these people who actually absolutely lived for his job and fundamentally believed in it. I think it’s quite interesting. You came up with a couple of items from your collection to discuss. We’re talking about these themes. And the first of these, you are not miss hearing me, dear listeners, it’s called ‘Captain James Crook’ by the artist Jason Wing, from 2013. Kevin, tell me about this. It’s brilliant.

    Kevin Sumption

    So, this is a, as you can imagine, a very controversial bronze bust. And at one level, it’s a very traditional bronze bust of Cook, except Jason has subverted the artwork by placing a balaclava over Cook, as though he is breaking into your home as a crook.

    Sam Willis

    Armed robber

    Kevin Sumption

    As an armed robber. And look, we acquired this piece about three years ago from Jason – it’s a major award-winning Contemporary artwork. We actually went a bit further though, we asked Jason to create another bust for us, which actually is one of Cook in a very traditional sense, without the balaclava. And at the museum, we display the two together, very deliberately, in a way to say to people, look, there’s a multiplicity of ways of potentially seeing this story and this man. We’re not going to tell you which one we think is the right one, but we’d like you to appreciate that some people in our community may have a very different view of Cooks achievements, particularly symbolically, for First Nation people Cook marks the beginning of colonization in Australia. Which means he’s got a symbolic value for First Nations Australians that may be very different from those of us who’ve come as migrants from Europe.

    Sam Willis

    And the violence, implicit in it, the threat and the fear – it’s so powerful because people understand the fear of someone charging into your house, holding you up stealing everything. But that’s why I think it works so well – to actually to get that sort of visceral fear, but applying it to history to say, actually, this is how many people consider this and or thought about it, it’s very clever.

    Kevin Sumption

    It’s very clever. But as Jason will say to you, the artist, he also took a lot of stick. I mean, he got a lot of threats, you know, there were points where he was quite scared for himself and his family and putting this artwork out there. So, it speaks again, to the power of Cook, as a figure in Australian history that this kind of reconceptualising of Cook really struck a chord with a lot of people and in that, for me, that’s what museums are about; museums are about trying to get people to understand that maybe things aren’t as clear or as easy as they might seem. If you dig a little bit deeper, you might find there are different stories and different views other than your own, which is what museums (good museums) are about. They’re about thought-provoking discussions about history. Because as we know, history is not a static thing. It is something that is constantly moving, with different voices being heard, or sometimes not being heard, that makes it so fascinating and such a great business to be in.

    Sam Willis

    You know, the depth of the animosity here. I mean, I read that he faced a potential civil lawsuit for defaming Captain Cook’s good name. That’s an extraordinary sentence. And it makes you realize that the almost unwillingness to consider that Cook might not have had a good name.

    Kevin Sumption

    And I think it does, again, speak to the deep-seated heroism, that Cook’s journey to Australia is seen to embody, rightly I would say. I myself, am a great admirer of Cook as someone who was out there using technologies and pushing the envelope and doing things that simply weren’t common by any means. And it was a very, very confrontational thing for Jason to do; highly provocative. But nonetheless, does work to get people to appreciate that history is not one dimensional, there’s multi-dimensions here. And not everybody will share our perception or our view. And Jason – his works are provocative, and they tend to promote a pretty rigorous debate and discussion.

    Sam Willis

    You were saying how history changes and everything. And that’s so true. And it actually makes the challenge of running a museum almost more difficult because out of your 100 and however many 1000 objects you said you have just occasionally as the world changes, one will suddenly tell a story incredibly powerful in a way that it didn’t last year, and you need to kind of keep on your toes, don’t you.

    Kevin Sumption

    I think that’s the beauty of being in a museum though is it’s something you’ve acquired maybe 20 years ago for a certain reason, might suddenly acquire a new value in a different context. And being on your toes and being aware of those changing opportunities is something that a good curator does. That’s really the discipline of a good curator, is to be able to go back, trawl back through the collection, and find something whose moment maybe today; it may tell a story today that wasn’t even the story we acquired some years ago. And that’s the beauty of collections themselves because they’re not static. Their context is always changing. And great curators are always able to see the collection in that way.

    Sam Willis

    I love the way that objects acquire stories. Anyway, let’s wrap up this discussion, I could actually spend all day talking to you. With this other artefact here, we’ve got, it’s a tea tray. It’s an 18th-century tea tray, this one. Tell me about this.

    Kevin Sumption

    So, this is a tea tray that actually depicts the death of Captain Cook in Hawaii. And it’s a work done in 1781, by George Carter. And he depicts the moment before Cook is killed. And I think what this tea tray does is, it’s a moment of – tragic moment – but it speaks to the absolute, what you would say, heroic status that Cook had acquired in his lifetime, particularly in Europe. It for me is, however, an object I like because we displayed it earlier this year alongside the telescope of Bligh. And, of course, what people don’t recognise is Bligh was actually on the ship, using this very same telescope, actually observing Cook, whilst he was on that very beach about to be killed. And when you bring these two objects together, we got a story not just about Cook, but we’ve got a very human story about Bligh’s connection to Cook as well. And to think that this telescope, sitting aside this illustration, its optics, up against the eye of Bligh, most observed this real moment in real-time. And that for me, again, is the power of these objects, bringing them together, it’s about as close as you get to a time machine. Bringing this telescope and bringing this object together. was so powerful was a fantastic arrangement of two pieces.

    Sam Willis

    I think it’s genius. Well done. Well done. Guys, thank you all so much for listening. I hope you’ve enjoyed that. As I say we’re doing a strand on historic vessels. And I promise you, we are going to come back to the Australian National Maritime Museum to talk more about their collection of historic vessels and hopefully, will even get you some video footage of them sailing. Kevin, thank you so much for your time talking to me today.

    Kevin Sumption

    Thanks, Sam. A real pleasure.

    Sam Willis

    Thanks, everyone so much for listening, as always. Now, how can you help? Well, you really can help. What you can do is you can go on to iTunes and you can leave a review of the podcast, every big, good review does make a huge difference. Otherwise, please find the Society for Nautical Research @snr.org.uk and please become a member. Your subscription fee will go towards preserving the maritime past and helping us to publish the most important maritime history. And also, please do get in touch with us on social media, either the Society for Nautical Research all the Mariner’s Mirror Podcast, you can join either one or you can find both and join both that would be wonderful. And do please get in touch and let us know if you’re enjoying it.

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